The Future of Connectivity with Digital Twins, AI, and the Global Supply Chain

Real-time data monitoring is revolutionizing maintenance and efficiency in industries such as aviation and automotive through digital twin technology.

Richard Donaldson, host of the Supply Chain Next podcast, is a visionary in supply chain management and circular economy advocate. His insights on moving from linear to circular supply chains highlight the potential for substantial environmental benefits and the importance of embracing reuse, especially in the context of his work with startups promoting circularity.

The dialogue extends beyond the digital twin to the broader digital transformation of global supply chains, drawing comparisons to the quick adoption of airplane wifi as an example of rapid technological progress. It explores the role of artificial intelligence in supply chain automation and predictive maintenance, touching upon the divide between machine learning and self-actualized thought. The conversation resonates with historical references and Richard's personal entrepreneurial experiences, including his tenure at eBay, his podcast Supply Chain Next, and his perspective on learning from failure. This episode offers a thought-provoking reflection on the future of supply chains and the role of technology in sustainable business practices.

Key takeaways:

The early days of the Internet continue to influence current work in digitizing supply chains.
The global supply chain still lacks full digitization and transparency, particularly in older, established processes.
There is a strong advocacy for shifting towards circular supply chains that are environmentally mindful and focused on sustainability.

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Connect with guest:

Richard Donaldson on LinkedIn

[00:00.000 --> 00:30.000] We need a digital twin of the physical supply chain, right? So first and foremost, the definition, if you want to put one around it, is the digital representation of the physical world. So digital twins really are the digitization of that entire ecosystem that I talked about. It's the hundred and five trillion dollar economy. It's the hundred million metric tons of materials that are being moved through the system. And the digital twin concept's been around a little bit, but it's just now taking hold. So I look at seven years from now. And I always said about 60% [00:30.000 --> 01:00.000] of the world supply chain through digitization should become circular. I still think they're super achievable just to put some goals out there and take in the digital twin concept to where it can bring us to. That to me is the most practical interface, impactful and measurable environmentally friendly thing we can do because the cascading implications of being circular that really solves a number of the things that we're looking to solve for. Hello and welcome to the next level supply chain with GS1 US, a podcast in which we explore the most. [01:00.000 --> 01:30.000] The mind-bending world of global supply chains covering topics such as automation, innovation, unique identity, and more. I'm your co-host, Reed. And I'm Liz. And welcome to the show. Hello, everyone. If you're ready to talk about digital twins, digitization, or even circular economy, you landed at the right spot. Today, our guest is another podcast host. His name is Richard Donaldson, and he's the host of supply chain next. [01:30.000 --> 01:59.900] He's also in charge of supply chains for eBay back in 2012 to about 2017. He also has a previous life involved in building out the internet even before it was TCP IP and just talking about the correlations between the two. So we covered digitization, digital twins, and the future of circular economy within our supply chains. There's a lot to unpack, so let's jump right in. Richard, welcome to the show. [02:00.000 --> 02:02.700] Thanks for having me, Reed and Liz. We're really excited to be here. [02:02.700 --> 02:12.780] We're excited to have you and to jump into this conversation. You and I have spoken before, but for those that don't know you, if you wouldn't mind, just take a second and just tell everyone a little bit about yourself. [02:12.780 --> 02:21.980] Absolutely. So Richard Donaldson can find me easily on LinkedIn. Pretty prolific poster there. And that's kind of the epicenter for all bios and CVs these days. [02:21.980 --> 02:29.980] But the quick and dirty grew up in Minnesota, went off school out east, lived and traveled in Europe, worked in Europe for a little while before graduating. [02:30.000 --> 02:39.920] And then post graduation did a little different of a sideways twist where I took off for about five years and lived in some odd places and the scoop instructors, key instructor and a chef. [02:39.920 --> 02:53.400] And then found my way circuitously and landed into very timely in 1997 to San Francisco, right when the internet was booming and was there for close to 25 years started an investment banking kind of migrate into economic consulting. [02:53.400 --> 03:06.540] And during that time, that was the real heady days and irrational exuberance of the internet euphoria that was happening at the time and anything with a dot com could get you $20 million with really not much of anything other than the dot com in your name. [03:06.540 --> 03:18.580] And just being there at that time and even reflecting on it now as I'm talking about this, it was really just one of those rare opportunities to be in the middle of a tidal wave or tsunami of really tectonics change in the world. [03:18.840 --> 03:24.300] And didn't have a plan so much as just really always found myself loving to solve problems. [03:24.300 --> 03:27.520] And that kind of led me into the entrepreneurial buzz. [03:27.520 --> 03:32.000] And first startup was called Tech Planet was a Silicon Valley version of the Geek Squad. [03:32.000 --> 03:36.640] So technology services and that parlayed me at that time, doesn't seem that long ago. [03:36.640 --> 03:40.000] And I was just saying here before we started the episode that it is 2023. [03:40.000 --> 03:42.960] So I'm really only talking about just a little over 20 years ago. [03:43.500 --> 03:49.420] And today we complain when our Wi-Fi speeds in an airplane are not doing 100 megs down. [03:49.860 --> 03:54.540] Well, back then we were still on 56 K vaud modus, right? [03:54.540 --> 04:01.420] So if you remember all the scratchy sounds and I mean, if you could download and get a couple characters in 30 seconds, that was pretty cool. [04:01.820 --> 04:10.100] So we were still connecting dial up connections and even the term dial up is pass a because there's probably a generation of people that don't even know what that means. [04:10.100 --> 04:11.620] So again, that's just 20 years ago. [04:11.720 --> 04:20.440] So anyway, started building infrastructure, which really actually was for me and continues to this day being a fundamental understanding of how the internet was put together. [04:20.440 --> 04:26.520] So I was connecting networks and small businesses, that technology, TCP IP and a local area network was new. [04:26.840 --> 04:33.720] It was our entree into small businesses and gave me really some fundamental working knowledge or the building blocks of the internet itself. [04:33.720 --> 04:41.480] Somehow that kind of led me into data centers, spent a good chunk of my time there at the forefront of the data center evolution that was going on at the time. [04:41.620 --> 04:47.480] And then I went on a thought leaders and development into what we now know is kind of the big companies like Digital Realty, Ecoponix and so on and so forth. [04:47.480 --> 04:52.880] And then somewhere along the way, I got lured into a company some people have heard of called eBay in around 2012. [04:52.880 --> 05:01.120] And they're a friend of mine, Dean Nelson, brought me in and said, hey, obviously we do data centers and build a lot of them, but we have the supply chain thingy that kind of feeds it. [05:01.120 --> 05:03.280] And we don't really completely understand it. [05:03.280 --> 05:04.560] So why don't you come in here and figure it out. [05:04.560 --> 05:06.120] And that was kind of my job description. [05:06.120 --> 05:09.320] And then of course, I relished the opportunity to go in there and figure things out. [05:09.320 --> 05:22.020] And I spent the next five years actually really peeling the onion back on not only eBay supply chain, but then starting to realize that it was relatively opaque to say the least, not really digitally connected, which for technology companies, kind of surprising. [05:22.360 --> 05:34.060] And led me to want to build a solution to manage our close to billion dollar supply chain there, but that was a stepping stone to other technology companies, which then led a stepping stone towards supply chain itself. [05:34.540 --> 05:40.500] I was winding up my time there about 2017 got midway through, by the way, just side note, we had a little interesting story with a guy. [05:40.500 --> 05:46.500] Some people have heard of uncle Carl icon came along and knocking on the door and decided that eBay and PayPal should split itself up. [05:46.940 --> 05:52.980] And in retrospect, it was a great move, but that chaos hastened to my departure in a way because eBay and PayPal split things. [05:52.980 --> 05:54.980] I was in the middle of actually splitting all the infrastructure up. [05:54.980 --> 06:03.780] And while I was building this internal platform, necessity being the mother of all invention, we were approached as eBay building this by an oil and gas company. [06:04.100 --> 06:12.780] Called Whirly Parsons that wanted to do something similar and concurred to that also approached by some people from the aviation industry to do something similar. [06:12.780 --> 06:25.780] So my field vision started to expand or as I'd like to say, my aperture started to expand to really take in the whole breadth of what the global supply chain issues were and how quite frankly it has been around forever. [06:25.780 --> 06:30.180] But one of those things that most people haven't touched for a long time and it need a lot of digitization. [06:30.540 --> 06:41.700] That led to founding a company called Requis, sort of an early stage supply chain platform focused on capital equipment still in existence today pre COVID the timing was real good. [06:41.700 --> 06:45.620] And then of course come along to come COVID and supply chains top of mind for everything. [06:45.620 --> 06:49.220] And that led also to me launching a podcast in the area of supply chain and read. [06:49.220 --> 06:59.260] That's how you and I met and a couple other colleagues there and opened me up to really starting to not only be an active participant in supply chain best practices evolution. [06:59.580 --> 07:01.500] Certainly moving into the world of circularity. [07:01.500 --> 07:06.140] But then as I like to do really started to become a part of the conversation on a global basis. [07:06.140 --> 07:10.340] And the best way I knew to do that was to start having those conversations and recording them. [07:10.340 --> 07:23.020] And three, four years later, 70s about episodes later, you know, I've been fortunate enough to really sit down with some of the thought leaders in the world of supply chain and really begin to pressure test a lot of the ideas, but at a macro global level. [07:23.020 --> 07:24.260] And that brings me to here. [07:24.260 --> 07:30.340] And now I moved, by the way, from San Francisco a couple of years ago during the pandemic and down in Arizona. [07:30.340 --> 07:32.420] And that's me, then a semi nutshell. [07:32.420 --> 07:34.860] See Liz, I'm not unique. [07:34.860 --> 07:37.540] There's lots of people out there in the world, just like me. [07:38.180 --> 07:41.620] I were joking, Richard, you know, like we have similar backgrounds. [07:41.620 --> 07:44.340] I started off in IT and no doubt. [07:44.340 --> 07:45.460] That was our episode. [07:45.460 --> 07:51.140] Bang and Vines, token ring, Apple talk, all this stuff before TCP IP came about. [07:51.140 --> 08:00.780] But it makes a lot of logical sense because of my career journey as to where you ended up, you get to eBay and it was all about digital. [08:00.780 --> 08:05.180] It was the online garage sales store environment, right? [08:05.180 --> 08:08.020] But you didn't have to have the store and all this stuff and everything. [08:08.020 --> 08:19.940] But to your point, supply chains have been around since the beginning of time, the Silk Road and the spice trade and everything is like supply chains have just been around for a really, really long time. [08:19.940 --> 08:24.980] And we got focused on operational pieces and we do digitize our supply chains. [08:24.980 --> 08:26.180] There's no doubt about it. [08:26.740 --> 08:30.940] But there's some things that we've really missed and it's what drives the world. [08:31.020 --> 08:32.700] Well, we're delighted to have you here. [08:32.780 --> 08:39.300] We're delighted to take a couple of different angles and we also encourage people to check out your podcast as well because it's very enlightening. [08:39.580 --> 08:49.020] One thing as you're kind of rattling through the history of it and is again, I think you and I share some similarities because we like to look back and history is definitely a great place to learn and see some of these trends. [08:49.020 --> 08:53.580] And a lot of the things that we think are new and unique are actually been around for a long time. [08:53.940 --> 09:06.260] But I think about trade, supply chain, supply chain development and arguably in our more recent, say in the last five, six hundred years, one of the most important companies that we've forgotten about is the Dutch East India Company, right? [09:06.260 --> 09:18.780] That literally defined the global supply chain, if not built it, arguably connected continents that had never been connected before and became arguably the most powerful company. [09:18.780 --> 09:28.180] In the world and even to this day, the impact of that company, which is somewhat to exist, has still has ripple effects on the things that we do today. [09:28.180 --> 09:41.660] So just to take that example and start to look forward to connect dots to then a future vision is I look at something like SpaceX and what Elon's doing in connecting planets and that's the next version if people are paying attention. [09:41.660 --> 09:50.780] Yeah, it's a big jump. But when you look at history, it's not a big jump because jumping on a boat and going across the flat world was a big jump back then. [09:50.820 --> 09:53.460] Oh, yeah. Oh, man. I wish we can get time travel. [09:56.460 --> 10:01.340] Just so everybody who's listening can kind of just get a baseline definition. [10:01.740 --> 10:08.380] When you say supply chain digitization, you said it with connecting the dots, connecting continents. [10:08.740 --> 10:14.380] Today, 2023, 2024, what does supply chain digitization mean to you? [10:14.900 --> 10:17.540] So three numbers always toss out when that question is asked. [10:17.540 --> 10:29.980] And that is 8 billion people, 100 and $506 trillion global economy and 100 million tons metric tons of materials that are extracted from the earth to feed that supply chain. [10:30.220 --> 10:40.180] And I talk about supply chain and I'm stealing a little bit from a colleague Brian AOE out of New York there of refashioned ventures and he said the world is a supply chain. [10:40.180 --> 10:41.580] And that's what I mean by those three numbers. [10:41.580 --> 10:58.300] So when I talk about the digitization of the global supply chain, at this juncture, we have the capability should have the capability to digitally connect all those people, all that economic activity and all those materials as they flow through in a linear fashion. [10:58.500 --> 11:12.020] And the two parts of innovation transformation that I feel are critical to make it work are one, the underlying asset tracking of all those things, which you guys at GS1 are famous for. [11:12.020 --> 11:14.420] And one of the reasons why I sought you guys out to talk to. [11:14.500 --> 11:25.740] But then secondly, which is really the transformative part is now instead of having a linear source to basically waste supply chain, curve that into a circular fashion. [11:25.940 --> 11:32.020] So I think the term circularity, which I've also been a big fan of since it started, which isn't just recycling. [11:32.020 --> 11:36.740] It really is thinking about this whole thing through its reuse, its extended use, its repurposing. [11:36.940 --> 11:43.340] But it's really saying if I look at batteries as a case in point today, EV batteries, big thing that we all talk about lithium in particular. [11:43.340 --> 11:47.260] There's a company called Aquimetals out of Reno, which I'm a big fan of doing this circular kind of messaging. [11:47.700 --> 11:55.700] But in part, I can look back and tell you that we've extracted out of the earth about 700 close to 800,000 metric tons of lithium over the last 12 years. [11:55.700 --> 11:58.220] Public knowledge, that means that's above ground. [11:58.460 --> 12:00.340] Last year, we extracted about 100,000. [12:00.380 --> 12:03.340] The lifespan of that lithium in use is close to five to six years. [12:03.460 --> 12:06.540] And then we got to kind of recycle it or circularize it, if you will. [12:06.700 --> 12:24.860] That to me is now saying, okay, instead of going back to the well, so to speak, to pull lithium out, let's use the time age of the lithium that's been out there and take the oldest 100 or 200,000 metric tons that are coming up of age, put them back in circular [12:24.940 --> 12:28.500] and preclude the need to extract that virgin material out of the ground. [12:28.700 --> 12:35.500] That to me is the essence of circularity, which closes the loop in a way that we can actually be far more sustainable. [12:35.500 --> 12:40.660] It's far more environmentally impactful than many of the things that I think we've been chasing for a long time. [12:40.900 --> 12:42.060] And it's measurable. [12:42.180 --> 12:48.340] And it actually stems also from the first point, which is the digitization of the supply chain, because we can't do much if we don't know where everything is. [12:48.740 --> 12:57.460] Right, we're making a lot of assumptions and we're having a lot of errors and writing was that an eight was out of three, all those types of things. [12:57.500 --> 13:00.820] Liz and I often talk about supply chains. [13:00.860 --> 13:02.420] You mentioned the word linear. [13:02.460 --> 13:06.620] Liz and I are like, it's really a web and there has to be curves to it. [13:06.620 --> 13:12.900] And so I want to jump here a little bit and talk about digital twins. [13:12.900 --> 13:24.460] I know what it means to me and probably one of the most well known examples is GE's engines for airplanes, airlines, at least them out and they have a digital twin of it. [13:24.460 --> 13:30.380] And so GE is kind of telling them there's a lot of things out there IBM works with them and a lot of folks are involved. [13:30.380 --> 13:41.140] It's not just one solution, but what impact are digital twins having on supply chains, if any today or is it just more of a conversation today. [13:41.300 --> 13:47.580] And we're heading that direction, or is it impactful today on our supply chains. [13:47.580 --> 14:01.780] I think there's so many examples of digital twins already in use that sometimes we just need to revisit them under the auspice of digital twin and how is that a means with which to then expand it to everything in the supply chain. [14:01.780 --> 14:08.180] You and I are saying the same thing, digital twinning or digitization of the supply chain, we need a digital twin of the physical supply chain. [14:08.220 --> 14:18.140] Right. So first and foremost, the definition, if you want to put one around it, is the digital representation of the physical world, just at a simple level. [14:18.140 --> 14:26.820] And that then cascades into all the piece parts, how granular do I go? Is it down to the screw? Is it down to the source materials? [14:26.820 --> 14:32.060] I would argue at some point it is down to the source materials that we want to get to, but that's a visionary kind of statement. [14:32.100 --> 14:46.180] I think in the practical sense, we can start with things that we can already see today that have had impacts and those impacts have already demonstrated because a lot of people, you know, when you think of new ideas, and this is the problem you have with the entrepreneurism, most people know. [14:46.180 --> 14:51.260] Right now is all these new ideas are awesome when they're actually executed and implemented. [14:51.620 --> 14:57.940] But initially, almost every time you come up with a new idea, no matter how common sense it is, everyone's like, no, you can't do that. [14:58.220 --> 15:04.060] That's generally the reaction. So as an entrepreneur, you learn real quick to have thick skin because every idea you think is great. [15:04.060 --> 15:09.820] And then when you bring it to market, everyone's like, no, we've never done that before. We can't do that before. [15:09.900 --> 15:16.420] I mean, I still go back to the internet at that time. So many people were coming out on the internet. It's a fat that was literally being written about on a global basis. [15:16.420 --> 15:21.100] Like, oh, this is stupid. A bunch of geeks are talking to each other and messaging, like what a dumb idea, right? [15:21.820 --> 15:22.740] And use online. [15:22.740 --> 15:27.020] Yeah, right. I mean, hey, who the hell is going to buy a book online for God sakes? Right? [15:27.020 --> 15:30.020] What a dumb idea says Barnes and Noble back in the day, right? [15:30.260 --> 15:35.660] OK, so digital twins really are the digitization of that entire ecosystem that I talked about. [15:35.660 --> 15:37.820] It's the hundred and five trillion dollar economy. [15:37.820 --> 15:44.140] It's the hundred million metric tons of materials that are being moved through the system where I see digital twins and you brought up some great examples. [15:44.140 --> 15:48.340] There's digital twins now of engine parts, engines in deployment. [15:48.500 --> 15:51.300] I was going to say in a more simplistic level, we have digital twins. [15:51.300 --> 15:57.140] Almost everyone uses every day and that's you driving in a car and Google maps or ways. [15:57.140 --> 16:02.100] That's actually a digital twin. That's a digital twin of me in a vehicle moving around collecting data. [16:02.100 --> 16:05.420] It's a digital representation of the physical activity that I'm undertaking. [16:05.820 --> 16:08.820] And I can use the same thing in flight tracking aviation. [16:08.820 --> 16:14.900] I'm watching them move around the world. That's a digital twin of a physical asset that is, you know, moving across the sky. [16:15.260 --> 16:18.020] But there's all that data around what's happening in that plane. [16:18.020 --> 16:21.020] There's also within most of those planes sticking with that example, [16:21.020 --> 16:24.500] Boeing and Airbus have integrated into the planes themselves. [16:24.820 --> 16:31.660] The digital connection points that enable the mechanics like kind of a real time car facts being developed. [16:31.900 --> 16:34.540] What's going on in the plane? Where's it traveling from? [16:34.540 --> 16:35.860] What environments are going through? [16:35.860 --> 16:44.100] So by the time it lands, if there's repairs that need to happen, it proactively has transmitted that data to those mechanics at the ground level. [16:44.180 --> 16:54.140] And that has sped up turnaround time for the airline industry through the use of what we'll call digital twinning of the aircraft and everything it's doing in its transportation modes. [16:54.420 --> 17:02.340] Car facts bring that one up. That's a digital twin of the car of the history of it, the parts that it's had, the issues or accidents or whatever. [17:02.620 --> 17:06.140] There's a countless examples of digital twins that exist today. [17:06.460 --> 17:08.420] Sometimes we just don't think of them. [17:08.740 --> 17:14.260] But when you do bring up these use cases, it's almost like self-evident, obvious, like, oh, of course it's had an impact. [17:14.260 --> 17:16.620] Of course, it's made things a lot more efficient, of course. [17:16.940 --> 17:20.460] So it's not that digital twinning is radical in any way. [17:20.460 --> 17:23.020] It's actually being implemented all over the place right now. [17:23.340 --> 17:30.300] But it is like everything else, just hard to go back in and retrofit into pre-existing processes. [17:30.580 --> 17:34.380] That's the biggest challenge of any change management is status quo. [17:34.540 --> 17:42.900] And the digitization of the global supply chain is a massive undertaking where 20% of the global supply chain is digitized, maybe 30% at the outside. [17:43.140 --> 17:56.740] We still have a long way to go to create that ways like experience that we all now count on from get to A to B because I don't know the last time you guys use a physical map in a car, but it looks like all of us probably remember pulling the maps out and trying to figure out how to get from the A to B. [17:56.740 --> 18:00.020] If you told me if I didn't have ways in my car, I'm not sure I could get anywhere today. [18:00.340 --> 18:01.980] Yeah, it's actually gotten pretty bad. [18:02.060 --> 18:05.460] I remember printing out MapQuest, right? [18:05.460 --> 18:06.100] Yeah, right. [18:06.100 --> 18:07.020] I remember printing out MapQuest. [18:08.100 --> 18:09.100] It's awesome. [18:09.100 --> 18:16.380] When my wife and I were dating, I remember giving me instructions to her parents' house to meet them for the first time. [18:16.660 --> 18:19.060] Then the second time I went, I printed out MapQuest. [18:19.460 --> 18:22.860] And now I'm like, wow, that was like not that long ago, but... [18:22.860 --> 18:23.420] No, right. [18:23.420 --> 18:23.780] Right. [18:23.780 --> 18:24.940] Think how fast we're moving. [18:24.940 --> 18:28.420] And it's the same thing, even if you go back to that airplane Wi-Fi analogy, right? [18:28.420 --> 18:34.660] I mean, it wasn't like 10, 15 years ago that we actually could get Wi-Fi in the airplane because at that time, they still thought all the airplanes were out of the minute. [18:34.660 --> 18:35.220] Wow, it's a staple. [18:35.220 --> 18:35.740] Right. [18:35.740 --> 18:36.620] Now it's a staple. [18:36.620 --> 18:38.700] And now the expectation is gone even further. [18:38.700 --> 18:41.380] It's like, god damn it, I can't do video conferencing in the plane. [18:41.380 --> 18:43.860] It's like, do you realize what's going on here? [18:44.860 --> 18:49.820] You've got satellites and planes moving at Mach 0.78 and you are connecting everything. [18:50.060 --> 18:54.300] And that is a technical achievement that has come together in the last 12 to 13 years. [18:54.340 --> 19:00.460] So just now think 10 years out at the accelerated innovation curve that's occurring. [19:00.820 --> 19:05.100] And this whole digitization thing that we're talking about right now, I've mentioned earlier, we're in 2023. [19:05.420 --> 19:11.620] When we started in 2020, a lot of people, including myself, wrote articles, talking about the decade of the supply chain. [19:12.100 --> 19:18.180] And I still think this actually rings true because now here we are three years into the 20s. [19:18.700 --> 19:21.980] And this conversation is a lot more common now, right? [19:21.980 --> 19:23.980] It's about digitization of the supply chain. [19:23.980 --> 19:25.900] It's about the circularization of the supply chain. [19:26.100 --> 19:30.180] It's no longer a interesting idea, whatever. [19:30.220 --> 19:31.820] It's how are we doing this? [19:31.820 --> 19:34.500] Where can we see examples of it in real time? [19:34.740 --> 19:38.500] And the digital twin concept's been around a little bit, but it's just now taking hold. [19:38.500 --> 19:40.740] So I look at seven years from now. [19:40.740 --> 19:47.180] And I always said about 60% of the world's supply chain through digitization should become circular. [19:47.460 --> 19:51.620] I still think they're super achievable just to put some kind of more goals out there [19:51.620 --> 19:54.060] and taking the digital twin concept to where it can bring us to. [19:54.060 --> 20:01.460] That to me is the most practical interface, impactful and measurable, environmentally friendly thing we can do. [20:01.660 --> 20:07.020] Because the cascading implications of being circular, but really solves a number of the things that we're looking to solve for. [20:07.460 --> 20:11.100] When I hear digital twin, my mind is kind of like, oh, gosh, I don't know what you're going to talk about. [20:11.100 --> 20:14.420] But then you give examples like waves and flight tracker. [20:14.420 --> 20:17.300] And I'm on my flight last week from Newark to Atlanta. [20:17.300 --> 20:21.060] And I could see exactly where I was at any point in time in that flight. [20:21.380 --> 20:25.100] And so could my husband, if he was tracking on his phone, it's crazy. [20:25.100 --> 20:34.860] And so I want to take like the next step into where I don't understand, which is you talked about digital twins and things that are happening today and how that's going to evolve. [20:34.860 --> 20:37.340] But what about artificial intelligence? [20:37.580 --> 20:40.260] What's going on with artificial intelligence in the supply chain? [20:40.260 --> 20:42.900] I know we're seeing it in other things than supply chain. [20:42.900 --> 20:43.900] But what about supply chain? [20:44.260 --> 20:51.020] I probably have a slightly different definition of artificial intelligence in so far as I actually don't think we've come close. [20:51.380 --> 21:04.420] To real artificial intelligence, meaning most of everything we're doing today is algorithmic programming or machine learning or still just really smart programmers putting stuff together and algorithmically programming some self learning. [21:04.540 --> 21:10.220] And all that simply means is the algorithm gets a little bit more in tune as it crunches more data. [21:10.740 --> 21:19.420] But for me, artificial intelligence to define it is really about and this is going to be a little bit more sci-fi probably is really about self actualized thought. [21:19.500 --> 21:21.820] So this is kind of a Ray Kurtzweil realm, right? [21:21.820 --> 21:23.620] Singularity, things of that nature. [21:23.980 --> 21:30.620] And artificial intelligence is I'm not even sure if artificial intelligence existed, would we really know where it is? [21:30.620 --> 21:32.020] Because what it tell us this is live. [21:32.020 --> 21:34.220] So with that though, it's a great moniker. [21:34.220 --> 21:41.900] And I think where we're seeing is the automation capabilities that we call artificial intelligence being applied to a digital supply chain. [21:42.220 --> 21:43.940] We have seen some of that. [21:43.940 --> 21:49.020] To some extent, that's kind of what's baked into the mechanics of the airlines. [21:49.140 --> 21:53.980] Who are taking the data that isn't real time being collected about the aircraft. [21:53.980 --> 22:01.940] And when you think about a Boeing 777 or an A380 or something like that or whatever, it means they're giant planes, millions or tens of millions of parts. [22:01.940 --> 22:02.500] They're in there. [22:02.580 --> 22:14.740] All of those parts are digitally represented now in a digital twin that the not only Boeing or Airbus can see, but the mechanics for the respective airlines can see. [22:15.020 --> 22:28.300] And as that plane is operating, the automation is now programmed and learning and getting smarter to realize when things are not just breaking, but now when they are about to break. [22:28.540 --> 22:35.300] So that when the plane lands, and again, we just talked about tracking and all that sort of stuff and the abilities and that sped things up. [22:35.300 --> 22:44.020] But one of the biggest things that happened is historically without that information being there in real time, a plane would land in the pilot or whoever would have to come off and say, oh, yeah, my whatever's broken. [22:44.340 --> 22:45.700] And then the mechanics have to deal with it. [22:45.900 --> 22:50.540] Well, now the plane's telling the mechanics before it lands three hours ahead of time. [22:50.660 --> 22:52.220] Here's what I think's going on. [22:52.420 --> 23:03.020] Here's where the issue is the mechanic can be there on site with the right parts, the right tools and make that turnaround instead of three hours or take that plane offline for days. [23:03.300 --> 23:07.140] Literally take five minutes, fix the part, put it back into service without even blinking. [23:07.460 --> 23:14.100] That to me is a representation of the automation evolution that's happening right in front of our eyes. [23:14.340 --> 23:15.980] You can call it artificial intelligence. [23:15.980 --> 23:20.900] I don't know if it's self-aware, which is my one little D mark there, but it's getting damn close. [23:20.940 --> 23:26.940] When the planes start flying themselves and making decisions for themselves, we can have a different kind of Terminator conversation. [23:26.940 --> 23:31.020] But as of right now, that's indicative of where things are headed. [23:31.140 --> 23:33.700] And even in cars, think about cars today, right? [23:33.860 --> 23:38.860] My car is smart enough to tell me that, hey, dude, you forgot, you need a mechanic appointment coming up. [23:38.860 --> 23:43.540] And oh, by the way, they hear the things that I'm going to tell the mechanic shop when they go plug into the car. [23:43.580 --> 23:49.580] And it's transmitted in some cases digitally, like in the Tesla's, I believe, they kind of know what to fix before you even get there. [23:49.580 --> 23:57.380] So that's a great example of the efficiency gains and the reduction of downtime to solve for things that we already have today. [23:57.380 --> 23:59.980] And we're not even into the realm of truly changing things. [23:59.980 --> 24:03.300] We're simply making more efficient the things we have in place today. [24:03.700 --> 24:06.420] It's really cool, a little scary, really cool. [24:06.420 --> 24:06.900] Yeah, right. [24:06.900 --> 24:10.060] I mean, some of it's scary, but, you know, I mean, hey, people thought the internet was scary. [24:10.260 --> 24:10.980] Well, that's true. [24:10.980 --> 24:12.940] And it's like these little steps forward. [24:12.940 --> 24:14.420] You said Terminator, I think Borg. [24:14.820 --> 24:16.740] So, oh, Borg, hey, I'm right there with you, dude. [24:16.740 --> 24:18.940] Giving that square Borg and resistance is futile. [24:18.940 --> 24:19.780] So I get it. [24:19.980 --> 24:20.660] Exactly. [24:21.100 --> 24:33.180] So going back, I want to just touch on circular supply chains for a second because moving away from AI and digital twins, but more so it sounds like something that you're passionate about is the circular supply chain. [24:33.340 --> 24:40.700] And how can we make that linear supply chain more circular by using some of these new technologies or not even new, really? [24:40.700 --> 24:42.780] It sounds like they've been around, but the emerging. [24:43.140 --> 24:44.660] Yeah, yeah, no, no. [24:44.660 --> 24:49.740] And I think some are new, some applications that we've used in other areas that we're applying to different verticals. [24:50.020 --> 24:52.140] And that's another thing that I think is also true today. [24:52.140 --> 24:58.380] This is a little bit different is looking at the supply chain as a whole versus the supply chain as vertical segments. [24:58.420 --> 24:59.940] The entire supply chain is connected. [24:59.940 --> 25:05.580] It all connects back to the root elements that we pull out of the earth that then refined, manufactured and put into products. [25:05.860 --> 25:13.740] But we so often think of it as an oil and gas supply chain or a automobile supply chain or a medical supply chain, but it is one global supply chain. [25:13.740 --> 25:17.420] And I think that is not necessarily universally accepted yet. [25:17.420 --> 25:28.300] Certainly amongst chief supply chain officers that I've spoken to in different verticals, but it should be because best practices and oil and gas can be applied to, I don't know, a peril manufacturing or vice versa. [25:28.300 --> 25:33.140] And sharing those things versus keeping them siloed is extremely beneficial. [25:33.340 --> 25:38.460] And so I think the circular concept needs to be looked at on that very holistic global level. [25:38.460 --> 25:42.100] That's why I start with the hundred million tons of things that we pull out of the earth every year. [25:42.340 --> 25:45.660] And that data can be found simply at there's a group called the Circle Economy. [25:45.820 --> 25:47.660] I've had them on my show a number of times. [25:47.900 --> 25:53.460] And in fact, they author a circular gap report and that's where this data comes from that I quote. [25:53.740 --> 26:06.180] And they're the one showing and they've got a great sinky chart and it kind of shows all these materials being pulled out of the earth and how they flow through and how they end up into use and or most often into waste. [26:06.300 --> 26:19.540] I think the one of the things just before I get into the circular side that is also something we have to address and circularity forces us to do that is of the things we pull out of the earth that are then refined and manufactured and turned into products. [26:19.620 --> 26:26.260] Forget the fact that most of it's thrown out in waste anyways and not reused, extended or find other uses for and that's where circular comes in. [26:26.460 --> 26:35.380] But of the new materials we pull out of the earth, I conservatively estimate between 30 and 40 percent is wasted before it even gets to first use. [26:35.420 --> 26:38.700] Think about that 30 million to 40 million tons of the stuff we're pulling on years. [26:38.900 --> 26:40.980] Yeah, that's the example I always use for every day. [26:40.980 --> 26:44.220] We even get to the grocery store and that's being nice. [26:44.300 --> 26:45.620] We don't like to look at our sewage. [26:45.620 --> 26:48.260] We don't like to look at our plumbing is important as it is. [26:48.260 --> 26:51.740] And so most people don't like to look at this and talk about it, but it is something we have to get out there. [26:51.740 --> 27:04.620] So back to circular, we really got to take this truly global look at everything we're doing, starting from the core elements that we pull out, seeing how it moves through refined, manufactured all the way to use. [27:05.100 --> 27:12.180] And I do some advisory work mentoring work for startups and I was involved with a JP work and Tech All Stars group have been for the past couple of years. [27:12.220 --> 27:24.740] The cohort this year, I'd say 50 percent of the startups were actually talking about circular as some of their themes, which to me warmed my heart because now it's becoming wrapped into the lexicon and talking points of even startups. [27:24.740 --> 27:29.140] One in particular was the reuse and circularity of baby clothes. [27:29.140 --> 27:40.380] They were saying, well, good God, if there's anything that should be focused on circular is baby clothes because you go out there and you got a child who's, I mean, they grow like weeds and you buy a little jumper that maybe they fit in for a week. [27:40.380 --> 27:41.780] They've already grown and moved on. [27:41.780 --> 27:42.780] What do you do with that thing? [27:42.780 --> 27:52.540] You pass it down maybe to the next kid, if you have more, but why not really think on a holistic level and get into the circularity of those clothes and build and they've developed a manufacturing process. [27:52.540 --> 27:55.140] And I think the biggest fear people have is used stuff. [27:55.140 --> 27:56.380] Is it inferior? [27:56.780 --> 27:58.060] Well, it's not. [27:58.100 --> 28:05.100] I'll give you the case and point metals used metal is not used when I recycle or refine copper that's been out in use. [28:05.100 --> 28:08.460] Well, first of all, the copper that comes out of the ground that is then refined and manufactured. [28:09.020 --> 28:19.460] Pass to a here to a metalergic standard that's stipulated by the whatever metal, which society that does that stuff and it has to meet, you know, this type of standard strength and yeah, right? [28:19.460 --> 28:24.260] Well, if I'm reusing or recycling that copper, it has to meet the exact same standards. [28:24.300 --> 28:29.740] So there's literally no difference other than people's perception that it was used. [28:30.140 --> 28:51.740] And I think that's being changed too, because I go back and look at the impact that the pre owned car concept that Mercedes, thankfully, really kind of popularized that really changed the whole world where again, I think everyone here not only remembers paper maps, but buying a used car back in the day 30, 40 years ago, people are just like, Oh, you got a used car. [28:51.740 --> 28:52.940] Like, what's wrong with you? [28:53.020 --> 28:55.140] And nowadays, it's flipped on its head. [28:55.140 --> 28:58.140] People look at you and like, what are you thinking buying a new car? [28:58.140 --> 28:58.340] Right? [28:58.340 --> 29:00.940] You've wasted all that money and what about depreciation? [29:00.940 --> 29:07.500] And I think that's indicative of a change in mindset that's going to be a lot more open to circularity. [29:07.500 --> 29:14.740] And I think circularity is doing a good job of really decoupling itself from the concept of recycling because it's not recycling. [29:14.740 --> 29:17.620] Yes, recycling is a part of it, but it's so much more than that. [29:17.620 --> 29:24.940] I think circularity will have probably the biggest impact beyond the digitization of the supply chain on the supply chain. [29:24.940 --> 29:38.340] In itself, how we use things and most importantly, top of mind for people, I believe it will have immediate impact and benefit for the actual environment in ways that we've tried in so many other avenues to do. [29:38.340 --> 29:40.540] But I'm going to make sort of a controversial statement. [29:40.740 --> 29:41.740] We really haven't done much yet. [29:41.740 --> 29:45.740] And so I think we're kind of running around chasing our tail off doing some things. [29:45.740 --> 29:49.940] I think the heart's in the right place, but we haven't quite figured out how to really do something. [29:49.940 --> 29:52.340] And sometimes we get a little too fixated and tunnel vision. [29:52.540 --> 29:55.540] And I actually think circularity is the answer we've all been looking for. [29:55.540 --> 29:58.140] We just need to get people kind of on that bandwagon and it's happening. [29:58.140 --> 29:59.540] It legitimately is happening. [29:59.540 --> 30:01.540] That topic in itself, it's deep. [30:01.540 --> 30:09.740] I don't know if you all have noticed and I don't know if you have by you, but we have public grocery stores by us and I've been seeing a ton of ads for publics. [30:09.740 --> 30:16.340] Just bring your plastic bags to us and we'll recycle them because plastic bag use has not been in the recycling realm. [30:16.340 --> 30:19.740] You put it in your garbage can to be recycled and you just contaminated it. [30:19.740 --> 30:27.740] But if you think about the use of plastic bags, do you know the average lifetime of that bag's use? [30:27.740 --> 30:29.740] Like I am using the bag. [30:29.740 --> 30:31.140] I'm sure it's long, but what is it? [30:31.140 --> 30:32.140] No, it's not. [30:32.140 --> 30:33.140] Think about you get it. [30:33.140 --> 30:34.140] Oh, the actual use. [30:34.140 --> 30:37.140] It was like five minutes, probably it's like 60 seconds and then it gets turned out. [30:37.140 --> 30:40.740] Yeah, and when you think about that, you're like, wow. [30:40.740 --> 30:46.540] And then you think about like, okay, and I'm using this to pack my lunch and four hours later I throw it out. [30:46.540 --> 30:49.540] And then I'm using this to wrap something in. [30:49.540 --> 30:50.540] I mean, don't get me wrong. [30:50.540 --> 30:59.540] These are fantastic advancements in the level of life that we all live, but at the same time they have consequences and other things and we're all getting better at reflecting on that. [30:59.540 --> 31:00.540] I want to move us along. [31:00.540 --> 31:04.540] I want to get one last question in before we move to our two last question. [31:04.540 --> 31:06.540] So three times coming at you, Richard. [31:06.540 --> 31:15.540] What's the big thing on the horizon for supply chain world right now, whether it's a process or a technology or just a thought shift from all the conversations you're having. [31:15.540 --> 31:17.540] What's big on the horizon for supply chains? [31:17.540 --> 31:25.540] Digitization and circularity are by far the two most impactful on the horizon still being in the process of being rolled out as of right now. [31:25.540 --> 31:35.540] But I don't want to discount because this is where things get me a little in some respects excited and nervous at the same time because we have a tendency to screw and things up as a species pretty quickly, but as the whole space exploration. [31:35.540 --> 31:37.540] Right. So it's out there. [31:37.540 --> 31:39.540] It's off planet, but you want innovation. [31:39.540 --> 31:52.540] I'll tell you, we are now exploring and determining that there are things out there where asteroids and comets and things of that nature resources that we haven't even tapped into that we can get access to essentially off world and pull it on world. [31:52.540 --> 32:01.540] That to me is probably one of the biggest, most exciting things going to truly start to show up the next 20 to 25 years more tangibly and not as far out there. [32:02.540 --> 32:05.540] I would say is the connective tissue that we're going to be able to see. [32:05.540 --> 32:09.540] So I'll call it the Amazonification of the global supply chain. [32:09.540 --> 32:21.540] So like you said earlier today, we can all use ways and kind of see what's going on and airplanes and flight tracking and things of that nature, but also, which we take for granted, which is a digital twin and representation of a supply chain. [32:21.540 --> 32:31.540] True digitization is the consumer Amazon experience of not only ordering something, but seeing where it is, when it is, how it got there. [32:31.540 --> 32:47.540] And then also now Amazon's even got to the point, which they haven't gotten into circularity, which, hey, hint, hint, hint, whoever's listening at Amazon, big one here for you is now the circularity of the consumables that they're delivering and creating a return methodology to capture the [32:47.540 --> 32:55.540] circularity of what they've created in the downstream or linear age old method of getting stuff to consumers that they use once and then throw out. [32:55.540 --> 33:13.540] So to repeat that, I think the example in front of our face is the brilliance of Amazon illustrating the art of the possible in the digitization of their own supply chain and the consumers connected there within the back end of that, then clearly is the manufacturers that are connected to that. [33:14.540 --> 33:19.540] And of course, those manufacturers are connected to the source materials that come into that whole thing. [33:19.540 --> 33:23.540] It's like the 10th wonder of the world, depending on how you want to count these things or beyond the 8th. [33:23.540 --> 33:25.540] I mean, there's a couple more that have started to show up. [33:25.540 --> 33:30.540] The opportunity for them that they haven't done yet, though, is begin to circularize that. [33:30.540 --> 33:36.540] They've done a great job of selling you more crap in it, say that somewhat lovingly, because I use it all the time. [33:36.540 --> 33:38.540] But what happens when I'm done with it? [33:38.540 --> 33:52.540] I literally put in a box, which I can return stuff fairly well when it's new, but they've also begun to algorithmically process how often I buy core consumables like toothpaste or toilet paper or mouthwash or whatever. [33:52.540 --> 33:55.540] So, okay, you kind of have done the front end side of it. [33:55.540 --> 34:07.540] Now in reverse, connect the dots in pulling back the things that I'm getting rid of in a way that makes sense that you can begin to create a circular manufacturing process for the return of those goods. [34:07.540 --> 34:18.540] If they did that, that would propel the world into circularity in a way that I think needs to happen on a global industrial level, but that's just sitting right in front of us that could happen today. [34:18.540 --> 34:23.540] Well, and that would help the paradigm shift for us as the consumers of stuff. [34:23.540 --> 34:28.540] Circularity then becomes very real for something we're already using and they're providing the solution. [34:28.540 --> 34:33.540] Totally, and it would not be hard for them to do, but it takes a little bit of investments, a little bit of time, they could do it. [34:33.540 --> 34:45.540] We ask this first question of all of our guests, and I cannot wait to hear your answer to it. So, whether it be in your personal life or your professional life, what is the favorite technology that you're using today? [34:45.540 --> 35:02.540] To use the words that we've been using so far, it's the digital twinning of the physical experiences through video editing and quite frankly, to go back to your word Liz, AI capabilities of merging that stuff together to make it useful [35:02.540 --> 35:13.540] for content that you can share. Let me explain. So, I have fallen into the world literally of skydiving and flying planes and started to teach in some of those respects, especially in aviation. [35:13.540 --> 35:30.540] And the ability to capture what you're doing in those GoPro and sort of beyond, there's a company called Revel, R-E-V-L that's really put that's marked in the skydiving world where when you go out and do a tandem jump, you know, you've got the instructor with their video on in the wrist [35:30.540 --> 35:42.540] and you've got the flyer, the other instructor who's kind of flying next to you, videoing these things, late snap these things on their helmet, they capture whatever's going on, then they come back after they jump and drop it into a trade [35:42.540 --> 35:59.540] and the video is then uploaded back to the Revel system, which in turn uses facial recognition and pre-programmed digital recognition of what's going on in all those various videos and is able to take, let's call it, collectively five minutes of raw footage [35:59.540 --> 36:10.540] from two or three different cameras and output two or three or four, 30, 60, 90 second edited compilations of those raw footage that's studio ready. [36:10.540 --> 36:19.540] And that to me, it's the underlying technology of that, and that is somewhat in the realm of AI. It's definitely machine learning and just smart algorithms. [36:19.540 --> 36:34.540] But it is reflective of what I think is, because we're talking about digital twinning kind of the physical supply chain, but what if we could digitally twin our literal listening and sensory experiences like vision and auditory and even smells for that matter? [36:34.540 --> 36:48.540] Why not? That to me is just starting to creep in, but I think underneath that is that's some of the most exciting digital twinning of the actual human experience and capturing that in a way that's not only shareable, but then is [36:48.540 --> 36:57.540] storeable and indexable in a way that the preservation of the human experience in a global way is uniquely captured. [36:57.540 --> 37:06.540] Wow, you might have answered the next question, but we can call it all of our guests, whether you as a child, a young adult, your current situation, [37:06.540 --> 37:12.540] what is something that's just completely blown your mind and changed the way you look at the world? [37:13.540 --> 37:20.540] I was fortunate enough to have a fairly good childhood, and one of the most profound things that happened to me, though, and I'll never forget it. [37:20.540 --> 37:29.540] I'd always been relatively, I guess, able to do things, and it was the first time I actually got fired from something, and I'll never forget it. [37:29.540 --> 37:39.540] It changed me as a person, changed my entire outlook on life, and it really shook me to the core in a way that to this day I'm thankful that that happened, [37:39.540 --> 37:46.540] because the lessons that came out of that for me and that failure cascades to how I begin to explain to people today. [37:46.540 --> 37:53.540] These cliches happen for a reason, but once you've experienced them and internalized them and able to verbalize them, they turn into something meaningful, [37:53.540 --> 38:05.540] and failure, in this case being fired for the first time in my life and anything, deeply affected the way I looked at both that event and how to process that and how to move forward, and everyone is going to fail. [38:06.540 --> 38:19.540] And one of the things I've even begun to appreciate through entrepreneurialism, through trying different things, through exploring or expanding or pushing myself into different areas, is if you're not failing, you're not necessarily trying hard enough. [38:19.540 --> 38:23.540] And that sounds, again, a little bit like whatever. [38:23.540 --> 38:25.540] But I truly, truly mean that, right? [38:25.540 --> 38:34.540] It's easy to kind of sit back and try to coast, and I'm not saying that's wrong, but at the same time for those that feel inspired to really get out there and push the envelope, [38:34.540 --> 38:37.540] pushing the envelope means you are going to fail a lot. [38:37.540 --> 38:41.540] And instead of trying to avoid that, embrace that. [38:41.540 --> 38:44.540] Because success, ironically, is easy. [38:44.540 --> 38:48.540] When everything works and you're successful, that's relatively easy. [38:48.540 --> 38:55.540] It's through failure that we learn the most, can advance ourselves the most, and you've heard all the cliches, you know, fail fast and all that crap. [38:55.540 --> 38:59.540] And like really people mean that or they mean those words, but I'm really connected to that. [38:59.540 --> 39:00.540] That I truly live and breathe. [39:00.540 --> 39:05.540] If I'm not out there screwing things up, especially doing things for the first time, then I'm not trying hard enough. [39:05.540 --> 39:13.540] And I've learned that the contrast of failure to success, if I don't have failure, I'll never understand what success truly is. [39:13.540 --> 39:17.540] And the bigger the failure, the bigger appreciation for success that I get. [39:17.540 --> 39:19.540] So that's kind of my biggest impact. [39:19.540 --> 39:20.540] I love it. [39:20.540 --> 39:22.540] I relate to that and appreciate that. [39:22.540 --> 39:28.540] You mentioned earlier, in your career, you were in IT and the .com stuff, and you and I talked about that. [39:28.540 --> 39:34.540] It was very much part of the .com boom and craze back in 98 through 2002. [39:34.540 --> 39:38.540] And I worked with a lot of VCs back then. [39:38.540 --> 39:44.540] It was like weekly meetings at the minimum of three luncheons, dinners, you know, whatever. [39:44.540 --> 39:51.540] And I remember vividly asking a few of them, Hey, what do you look for in an entrepreneurial leader? [39:51.540 --> 39:56.540] I mean, you guys are investing millions of dollars into these companies with young people and folks. [39:56.540 --> 39:59.540] So you're looking for a track record of success and they're like, absolutely. [39:59.540 --> 40:03.540] But if they don't have a failure, we don't want them. [40:03.540 --> 40:07.540] That hit me and it just brought me back 25 years to, oh my gosh. [40:07.540 --> 40:16.540] And the reason they wanted the failure was because if they've only had success, they can't anticipate a bad day and what's coming and how to grow. [40:16.540 --> 40:22.540] So Richard, we have come to the time, gone through the time and passed beyond that time. [40:22.540 --> 40:24.540] And we really have to wrap this up today. [40:24.540 --> 40:25.540] But absolutely. [40:25.540 --> 40:27.540] We can't thank you enough. [40:27.540 --> 40:29.540] You've been in supply chain since 2012. [40:29.540 --> 40:34.540] We talked about digitization and digital twins and circular economy. [40:34.540 --> 40:43.540] You also put a prediction in there that in seven years, you hope to see 60% of our supply chain in a circular environment one way or another. [40:43.540 --> 40:50.540] I agree with you that AI today right now is a little bit more like automation and just doing things faster that we've already been doing. [40:50.540 --> 40:53.540] And it's not that free thinking just yet. [40:53.540 --> 40:56.540] And I would encourage all of our listeners, check out Richard's podcast. [40:56.540 --> 40:59.540] He's the host of supply chain next. [40:59.540 --> 41:02.540] You can find it anywhere you find out your other podcast. [41:02.540 --> 41:03.540] Richard, thank you for the time today. [41:03.540 --> 41:04.540] It was a true pleasure. [41:04.540 --> 41:05.540] Absolutely. [41:05.540 --> 41:06.540] It was really fun. [41:06.540 --> 41:07.540] Always engaging. [41:07.540 --> 41:08.540] So thanks for having me. [41:10.540 --> 41:15.540] Thank you for joining us on this episode of the next level supply chain with GS1 US. [41:15.540 --> 41:21.540] If you enjoyed today's show, please subscribe to our feed and explore more great episodes wherever you get your podcasts. [41:21.540 --> 41:24.540] Don't forget to share and follow us on social media. [41:24.540 --> 41:26.540] Thanks again and we'll see you next time. Transcription results written to '/home/forge/transcribe2.sonicengage.com/releases/20240205230933' directory